Of dreams and wishes, a fic rec.

[layne67]

The one thing that I didn't quite get when watching the 'What Is And What Should Never Be' episode of Supernatural, is Sam and Dean not getting along with each other. I mean, the whole djin-induced dream was supposed to be what Dean subconciously wished for, right? And I got the whole Jess and Mary being alive, Sam getting his normal, and Carmen, even John being dead, too. But Sam hating Dean? *That* I didn't get.

Unless of course, it was because the djin manipulated the dream in such a way so that he got part of what he wanted but at the expense of another. Or maybe Dean's wish was just this vague, not clearly defined thing floating around in his head and the djin orchestraed the rest. Something like baylorsr's Wish in which little Sammy uncovered a genie that granted wishes, but if the wish was not worded properly than you'd end up being in big trouble. "They're more of a curse than anything else. They'll twist your wishes around to turn them against you, and horrible things can happen. John to Sam in 'Wish'.

So I guess that's what the djinn did, because otherwise I couldn't comprehend why in that alternate reality Sam hated Dean.

Here's one awesome fic written to that episode, Never Be, written by rejeneration. It's an alternative WIAWSNB in which Dean is shocked to find himself living in domestic bliss with somebody, and that somebody was not Carmen. And needless to say, there's nothing that I didn't "get" there!

Fluff and angst in abundance, it's Wincest, but not *really*. Read it if you haven't already. I've already gone through it three times.

Comments

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Want my interpretation of Dean and Sam's relationship in "What is..."?

The djinn-induced dream granted one dearly held wish and only one. In Dean's case, the one wish that was fulfilled was that his mother was never killed (and therefore, the family never had contact with anything supernatural and everyone got to live a normal life). Since the dream only fulfilled one wish, it couldn't create a "perfect" fantasy in which, say, John was still alive and Sam and Dean were close.

Also, everything beyond that one fulfilled wish was just Dean's dream-state. And the subconscious always bubbles up in weird ways during dreams. So Dean's subconscious did some interesting stuff there. It gave him some good things, like a hot and very respectable steady girlfriend. But it gave him a pretty raw deal on some other stuff -- like his relationship with Sam. I see this as Dean's subconscious saying that if it weren't for hunting, he and Sam probably would never have had much in common. Which sadly, is probably true. Even more sadly, Dean made his dream-self into something of a jackass who tormented his kid brother, whom everyone tends to think is drunk half the time, and who doesn't seem to have done all that much with his life. Oh...DEAN.

Of course, I find the absence of his father the most interesting. Realistically, I think that they just couldn't get JDM in for the episode. But it's much more fun to interpret that as part of Dean's character -- among the "good" things he manages to give himself in his dream is the fact that he doesn't have to see his father again. Oh, the delicious angst of it all!

Whoo. I'm long-winded tonight. Hope that made some sense.

[vshendria.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes! (see my reply below). Practically, JDM was not available, but putting that aside, I like to think that Dean's anger at his father was at work in that dream. How much better to have this nice, baseball-playing dude who died quietly in his sleep than try to imagine some version of a living John he could deal with. If he ever did get a chance to face his father again, he would either explode or short circuit. He might very well avoid it. He doesn't like the thought of John suffering, but he doesn't truly want him back (although he may not have admitted it to himself).

[layne67.livejournal.com]

he would either explode or short circuit

He kind of did that, at John's graveside.

Oh Dean!!!!

[layne67.livejournal.com]

Dean is one angst-filled character, isn't he, and that's why we love him so much.

What you said made perfect sense, Oselle. He really, really think very lowly of himself, and maybe deep, deep down, he also feels that he's somehow to blame for Mary's death. That wasn't said in 'Dream a Little Dream' but he was just a kid when mary died, and there are kids who blame themselves when tragedies happen in the family, say, their parents getting divorced.

And he didn't want John to die the way he did, so the djinn granted that, so instead of having John alive and well, he got a father who died peacefully in his sleep.

he manages to give himself in his dream is the fact that he doesn't have to see his father again

Taken into context on that Dean-on-Dean dialogue in 'Dream', the absence of John in WIAWSNB somehow takes on a whole new dimension, right?

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Taken into context on that Dean-on-Dean dialogue in 'Dream', the absence of John in WIAWSNB somehow takes on a whole new dimension, right?

Yes, definitely. It's such a complicated relationship. Because really, he DID love his father. But he hated him too, and he MUST feel horribly guilty about that on top of everything else. Like vshendria said, Dean probably couldn't have handled seeing his father again, dream or not.

[i-o-r-h-a-e-l.livejournal.com]

the fact that he doesn't have to see his father again

Oh my, yes of course. Perhaps it would be so difficult for him to face a father that had been nothing but making his life so hard. Dean would be so confused since this father might not be like that at all.

[vshendria.livejournal.com]

Crap. I wrote a whole reply and then it got lost. Oh, well, here we go again...

Here's how I read that episode:

First of all, recall that this is not a true alternative reality. It is not a "what if X never happened"? It is Dean's dream based on one wish, that Dean's mom had never died. But it is still all in Dean's head. So it reflects Dean's insecurity, his low self-esteem, and yes on some subconscious level he has resentment towards Sam. He has been responsible to Sam his entire life, so why wouldn't he harbor a little wish that Sam would go off and be responsible for himself? At least Dean can rest easy knowing that Sam is safe and happy. Sam disliking him is only to be expected, since Dean does not like himself.

And of course Dean believes that everyone will eventually leave him. He has no self-esteem at all, which is why, in a fantasy where he had two loving, supportive parents, he still can't see himself as anything but a happily ignorant, borderline criminal grease monkey. If Dean had really grown up with two "normal" loving parents, I figure he would have gone to college and become an engineer...or something else. He wouldn't be this guy whose intellectual and emotional life is so limited.

Also, notice that everyone keeps telling him to "get some rest"? More evidence that my boy is depressed. He just wants to lie down and stop.

That's why I think that episode is probably the best one ever.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Yes, it's one of the best episodes ever, especially for understanding Dean. I marvel at Raelle Tucker's insight into his character every time I see it, and it makes me very, very sorry that she's no longer with the show. I think her absence has been palpable this season.

In a REAL world in which the events of November, 1983 had never happened, I think Dean would probably have gone into the military or law enforcement or become a fireman, something like that. He has a natural restless energy, a love of the adrenaline rush and a need to be of service to others that would have had to find an outlet in something other than fixing people's cars. Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with fixing people's cars, but I think it would have been counter to Dean's nature to have stayed in Lawrence all his life drinking beer and tuning engines. Of course, a lot of people DO, unfortunately, wind up spending their lives counter to their natures, which is why there are so many miserable people in the world. And it's possible to imagine that, even in the real world, this is the way Dean would have gone.

But all that aside, in the DREAM world, this is the only way Dean imagines himself going. Now, you can also argue that this episode came at a time when so much awful shit had happened to Dean that the idea of living a quiet, beer-soaked life in Lawrence must have looked pretty good. But even if it looked good, and quiet, and safe, it's undeniable that Dean, deep down, sees himself in an unflattering light. Hunting seems to be the only thing that has given him any sense of worth and stripped of that...he's not much of anything.

And maybe that's another reason why his father was dead in his dream. Who knows what kind of disapproval dream-Daddy, ex-Marine and all, would have had for Dean? At least Dean's subconscious gave him the small mercy of not having to face that.

OMG, oh DEAN!!!!!!! I'm dyin' over here!

[layne67.livejournal.com]

oselle, I know that you don't do Wincest, but this (http://dark-reaction.livejournal.com/84046.html) is a brilliant take on how their lives would be like without the supernatural angle. And Dean is a cop in this story!

Yes, it's wincest, but it's only implied; blink and you would miss it, and it's really a cool fic!

Stopped at the Crossroads (http://dark-reaction.livejournal.com/84046.html) by dark_reaction.

[layne67.livejournal.com]

Oh wow, you and Oselle totally blew me apart with your comments.

notice that everyone keeps telling him to "get some rest"? More evidence that my boy is depressed. He just wants to lie down and stop.

A little off-tangent here, but I can't help recalling what Dean said to Sam in 'Crotoan', it wasn't said right out but I was under the impression that there was a second bullet in that gun, if he were forced to kill Sam. That line "I'm tired, Sam, so very telling of not only what he felt at that time, but of himself as a whole. Oh yes, Dean certainly has huge issues with himself.

and yes on some subconscious level he has resentment towards Sam.

That is probably true, but omg that hurts so very much, to think that Dean might resent Sam, even if it was subconciously. I can't take thaaaat!!!! I'd rather think that to Dean, conciously or subconciously, that Sam is the one thing in his life that he did right, and Sam disliking him in that dream state was because of the whole he-could-have-only-one-wish thing.

And I LOVE the idea of Dean as an engineer. Wow!

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I was under the impression that there was a second bullet in that gun

I was sure of it. There was no doubt in my mind that if Sam had developed the virus, it would have ended for both of them in that room.

I've had long discussions with baylorsr about what Dean would have done if he hadn't been able to bring Sam back to life and we both think that Dean would have killed himself. The only thing I've never been able to decide is if he would have hunted down the YED first and then done it, or if he would have just snapped and blown his brains out there in Cold Oak. If he HAD gone after the YED, he might have gained enough distance or at least gone numb enough not to do it, but I honestly don't know what he would have done with himself. I can't see him going back to hunting or taking refuge at Bobby's...I just don't know. I really don't think he could have gone on.

Sam disliking him in that dream state was because of the whole he-could-have-only-one-wish thing

And because he may see himself as beneath Sam so of course Sam dislikes him and looks down on him. He doesn't see himself as being worth Sam's regard and OMG! DEAN! I could talk about this all night!

[vshendria.livejournal.com]

I don't have a problem with Dean harboring resentment towards Sam. It doesn't mean he doesn't love him. It just makes him human.

And Dean didn't really have a wish. The djinn mined his brain and gave him a dream based on one major change. The rest it either didn't bother to get right or it couldn't control entirely.

[i-o-r-h-a-e-l.livejournal.com]

That's why I think that episode is probably the best one ever.

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

In my case, probably because it's Dean, Dean, Dean. :D

[i-o-r-h-a-e-l.livejournal.com]

What I understand is that Dean always wishes that Sam can go to school and have a normal life. What Dean doesn't expect is that being out to school and living a life like that makes Sam's life become totally different from Dean's. He lives in a different town, having his own activities, etc. And they don't share something that both of them do or enjoy. Dean never predicts this outcome so he is taken aback when that happens to him. He does only ask for those things I mentioned above for Sam. I think it was discussed somewhere in the episode.

[layne67.livejournal.com]

I remember the pride on his face when he first met Sam coming out of the car, and on learning that his boy is happy and normal at Stanford, with Jess, no less.

And how his face fell when Sam asked him what the buddy-buddy thing was all about.

*cries*

[munibunny.livejournal.com]

I was going to say something but oselle said it all right there. So. Yeah.

[layne67.livejournal.com]

Oselle did indeed. I didn't watch that episode when it was first aired, so I didn't join in the discussions back then, but I've read a number of codas to WIAWSNB, and 'Never Be' is one of my favourites!

[rejeneration.livejournal.com]

Hey, darlin'! Thanks so so so so much for the rec AND the understanding behind it. I, too, never understood the dynamics between Sam & Dean in that ep. I mean... if it's wish!verse, why would Dean think he and Sam were so at odds? Dean loves his Sammy (which, ya know, I tried to convey in the wish!verse I wrote). -smiling-

Seriously, thanks again! =D

[layne67.livejournal.com]

You are very, very welcome. Gosh, I should be the one to thank you, a thousand times over, for writing 'Never Be'.

So, THANK YOU! x1000

♥

[chloe-amethyst.livejournal.com]

You've received many thoughtful comments already, but as this is probably my favorite episode of all 3 seasons thus far, I couldn't resist adding more.

My take on Dean and Sam is that they have very different personalities in the dream world, just as they do in their non-dream reality. However, in the reality they had a tragedy that forced them to bond together in a way that the dream did not. When tragedy happens to a family, it either brings them together or splits them wide apart. In the Winchesters' case, Mary's death bonded Dean to Sam and to John in an ultra-powerful way that I believe goes above the typical sibling and father bonds most people have. Thus Sam and Dean were able to forge a deep love for each other that could overcome the fact that on the surface they have nearly no interests in common and very different personalities. This bond simply doesn't exist in the dream world because the tragedy that was the catalyst never happened.

Another important element that is missing in the dream world is the discipline that John enforced onto Dean when John became a single parent. Dean's personality is one of excess and recklessness at times, but because the tragedy made John his single and primary influence as a parent, it forced Dean to learn discipline and self-control, thus those more renegade aspects of his personality were reigned in and focused quite sharply (hunting and protecting Sammy) rather than Dean being left to his own devices. In the dream world, Mary most likely had more influence over the children's raising, so the soldier-like discipline and self-control was never taught. Thus, Dean ends up being not the most likeable guy in the world--heavy drinker, history of stealing, neglect of family (noted in comment about forgetting birthdays), etc. So that drives him and Sam even further apart. Dream!Sam really doesn't like Dean, and Dean isn't all that likable based on the past history is hinted at, and I totally understand that. Reality!Sam, however, loves his brother more than himself.

As far as the whole theme of "get some rest" and John being dead in the dream, I believe those are tied together. I think that subconsciously "rest" is actually what Dean's greatest wish is. Rest as relief from burdens and heartbreak. Wishing that his mom never died is how he realizes it in his conscious mind, however. And truly, if she'd never died, then he never would've been given the heavy burden that his father placed on him not only to protect Sammy, but also to kill Sammy if he can't save him. (!!!!) I can hardly imagine a burden so impossible to bear. Not to mention how tired he is from having to face evil day in and day out, and having to watch what little family he has dwindle away and be constantly threatened. And THAT is why John is not in this dream, because subconsciously Dean knows that he could never rest truly with his father around. Note that it's when he goes to see his father's grave that he is spurred back into action as much as it breaks his heart, because with his dad and all that he taught Dean about duty and family in his head and heart, he can never truly rest.

This episode upped Dean's nobility factor times a thousand I think. On the surface, he might appear be the last guy one would call "noble", but his sense of duty and love and sacrifice give him a near perfect nobility that Sam's character doesn't have.

Dean's has turned into a really great, complex character, not only for SPN but in terms of TV in general. I'm so sorry that Raelle Tucker has left because she understood him and the entire family dynamic so well. And Kripke, in the way he directed this episode and let Jensen have the time and care to truly act so much subtle magic shows he understands Dean so well also. :-)

[layne67.livejournal.com]

I LOVELOVELOVE your comment, Chloe. The tragedy that was the catalyst for making Dean what he is now, John's military-like training, the absence of a mother's influence - all those did not exist in Dean's dream world, it's something like a mathematical equation in which you get a different answer because you're given a different set of numbers!

I wonder very much why Raelle Tucker left the show. Was there any speculation back then on why she did that? I was thinking that it might be because of difference of opinion between her and the rest of the team on how the characters, and the story itself should be developed. Or maybe a clash between her and the network executives?

Was it her or Sera Gamble that said something about the Sam and Dean epic love story?

Btw, have you read Stopped at the Crossroads (http://dark-reaction.livejournal.com/84046.html)? It's a really great take on how Sam and Dean would have ended up if Sam wasn't the chosen one, Mary didn't die and John didn't become a hunter.

[ala-tariel.livejournal.com]

Aha! I know which story i_o_r_h_a_e_l would choose!

:))

[layne67.livejournal.com]

Which one???

And you really must read 'Wish' by Baylorsr. It's gen and it's completely adorable :))

[munibunny.livejournal.com]

Oh my goodness! Look at their little kissing feet! (Okay, maybe not so little... *hee*)

Love this picspam!

[layne67.livejournal.com]

Shoes and and how they behave with each other can tell you a lot. It's, uhm, scientifically proven.

*nods solemnly*