SPN 4.11

[layne67]

I've been wallowing in misery after I watched 4.11 last night. Oh, okay, maybe that's putting it a bit too dramatically, but you know what I mean. Because Dean saying he enjoyed torturing those poor souls in hell? I felt like I had lead in the pit of my stomach, because this is Dean we're talking about. So there I was trying to rationalize what he said, reading every reviews on my flist - and yeah, 30 years is a long time in hell, and he was on his way to becoming a demon himself, Ruby had said that would happen, so he wasn't really the Dean that we know - but still ...

It wasn't until I read oselle's thoughts here that I feel somewhat better, because those souls that Dean tortured in hell? They were in hell for a reason, we're not talking about innocent people here.

Let's assume that very few souls in hell are self-sacrificing Dean Winchester types or are there because of silly things religion says you go there for, like, I dunno...eating a cheeseburger on Good Friday. Let's assume that hell really is for the worst of the worst. So if Dean Winchester is putting pedophiles and serial killers and drug dealers on the ol' rack well...that's not so out-of-keeping with his character, is it?

It somehow slipped my mind as to what type of people got into hell in the first place, because my mind is weighed down by the thoughts of "Dean torturing people", and now "Dean enjoying torturing people". Not that it makes it alright for Dean to enjoy doing what he did of course, I suppose that's going to be Dean's personal hell for a long, long time, but it makes me feel a bit better about the whole thing, that I'm no longer *this* close to being disenchanted with Dean, that my love for Dean Winchester is back full-force.

I suppose with that final confession ( well, I hope it's the final one, I don't think I could bear it if he were to make yet another confssion to Sam ) the boys are now going to work towards being brothers again, back to being SamandDean. An uphill battle, that, what with Dean being Dean, and Ruby still out there somewhere, but I have hope ...

As to the episode per se, I have to say that unfortunately, it's not quite in the same league for me as Bloody Mary, Provenance or The Kids Are Alright. It's scary in the right places, yes, but gosh, I screamed, many times, during those three episodes.

And, am I the only one who wish, really wish that Sam and Dean manage to save the girl? That, for once, the MotW isn't killed? Because really, it's NOT her fault, what she became. I really pitied her when they showed her with Danny ...

Comments

[ckll.livejournal.com]

I'm not thinking too deep about, we knew before Dean goes to Hell that he had a sadistic hunter's side in him (Bloodlust) so it's not a coincidence that Demons wanted him.
All this has messed him up but he will eventually be back.

[layne67.livejournal.com]

I not only want Dean back, I want both brothers back, and I hope they'll start getting back together again now that they're not keeping secrets from each other anymore.

[tariana.livejournal.com]

I don't know what to think, but I like this idea that you quoted up there... it doesn't excuse or relieve Dean of what he did, but it makes it better in my mind, because at least they weren't innocent people he was torturing.

[layne67.livejournal.com]

That part about him enjoying what he did, that makes it so much worse, doesn't it? No wonder it was one whole month after that last confession before he told everything to Sam. And another reason for him to keep Sam from succumbing to the demon powers within him, he's afraid that Sam in his turn would enjoy using those powers.

[mews1945.livejournal.com]

I'm still hoping that this story line will eventually lead to redemption for Dean, and that it will be Sam and he who do it, together. His soul has to be deeply wounded by what's happened to him, and he could easily turn to real evil and become a demon himself.

But I'll tell you one thing, I'm getting a little sick of Sam being used as window dressing. It's almost like they've turned him into a supporting player. I started watching and kept watching because of the relationship between these brothers, because it lifted this show above the usual fare in this genre. But they're so separated, even though they're together, that it's almost become a different show.

I'm becoming frustrating enough to stop watching, if something doesn't change soon.

[layne67.livejournal.com]

The writers need to step up Sam's storyline more, because Jensen could steal a scene even when it's not about him, remember his one single tear to Sam's weeping in 'Heart'? Or when he was in the background in 'Yellow Fever', just standing there being drunk when Sam was talking to that Deputy, so what more if Dean's in the limelight?

[i-o-r-h-a-e-l.livejournal.com]

Okay, that helps.

Still, I want to think that this is about Dean, and not the ones he tortures. It can be anyone at all but the fact is Dean still enjoys doing it.

Ion, almost none of SPN eps really scares me. Heheh.

[layne67.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, of course it's about Dean and what he feels. It's just that I myself didn't feel good about it, it, mind you, not Dean himself. I feel for him, that poor man, remembering what a monster he himself was when he was in hell, how close he was to becoming a demon.

Heh, and to think that we've got over the unpleasant parts with the gratutious sex scenes!

[chloe-amethyst.livejournal.com]

I'm really sorry you felt so badly because I can't understand at all why people think this revelation casts a unforgivable pall over Dean.

Hell isn't the same reality that you and I and everyone walk in. We can't understand how that legendary environment, filled with constant, neverending suffering, torment, evil influence, and "soul-bending" (read: mind bending) would affect a soul in atypical or irrational ways. For me, it's not that hard to understand how Dean's soul became corrupted after so long in such an environment and completely forgivable that it did. Point is, he was saved, which means redeemed. Thus that isn't part of his soul anymore. Now he just needs to forgive himself.

Maybe it's because I've read so many POW autobiographies and Holocaust accounts that I can understand this. Honestly, what I can't understand is why so many loyal Dean fans can't give him the same forgiveness and understanding (note to the Sam-bashers that Sam did give him that in 4.11). I don't mean offense. It just puzzles me tremendously.

[layne67.livejournal.com]

But I do get it that hell is a different story altogether, I do understand where he was coming from, that he was gradually on his way to becoming a demon himself. It's just that it's such a shock to hear him admitting that. Maybe all this while I had this image of Dean being forced to torture souls as part of his own torture in hell, and it never ever occured to me before that that he might be enjoying it.

Ruby must have been a saint when she was a human, because that was hundreds ( thusands? ) of years ago and yet she still remembers being a human. You know, I've kind of got a new, grudging respect for Ruby now. I still don't like the idea of her with Sam, but as a character per se, yes, she intrigues me now.

[arabia764.livejournal.com]

It was all right, it was scary but... it had too many flaws. I know there's real logic and Spn logic but it didn't make sense in places and we've had the 'monster in the walls' before, back with Jo.

I felt sorry for the girl, I felt sorry for the mother's brother that was killed - but everyone just forgot about him.

And Dean enjoyed torture? What on earth is Kripke trying to do? Turn us against Dean?

[layne67.livejournal.com]

I was thinking of 'No Exit' and Jo, too, when I watched this episode. That's my least favourite episode, because it was so flat and evoked no response whatsoever in me, even after repeated viewings. There're other episodes which I didn't quite like on first viewing, but they got better after I watched them the second time, and some I even grew to love, episodes such as Fresh Blood and Sin City. But No Exit? Nope, I didn't like it then, and I still don't like it now.

Family Remains is not as bad as No Exit but yeah, the oohs and aahs are noticably missing.

I thought the girl was quite pretty, when she was showing Danny the rat. That was when I started to think oh please, let her be saved. The man, he was her uncle? I thought he was the girl's twin or something. I'm a bit confused as to that part.

I like what Chloe said about Dean in her comments above. Do go read!

[arabia764.livejournal.com]

Sorry, no, I meant Ted, the brother of the mum from the family that moved in. I think the other feral boy was her brother.

Chloe certainly has a point there, I think she's right. I can understand Dean, it's Kripke's intentions I have more trouble understanding.

[ninjamidget66.livejournal.com]

I think Chloe expressed it very well.

Many times this season they have stressed the point that Dean was saved. I've felt the emphasis to be on "his soul is saved"; as in God has forgiven his sins. Now he has to forgive himself and usually the 1st step is confession which is what he's now done in 4.10 and 4.11 (pls don't let there be anything else). :) I also think that this is what Castiel is here for, or at least part of it, to help Dean find faith not only in God, but also in himself so he's ready for whatever it is he's expected to do. I don't mean to get too "religious" or anything, because I'm not myself - it just seems this way to me.

Also, now Dean has seen the darkest part of himself and can choose to never go there again and I have a feeling we'll be getting a lesson in free will at some point on the show for one or both of the boys.

I also agree with Mom, give Sammy something to do already! I'm a Dean!girl but srsly, the show is about brothers fer pete's sake!

[layne67.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think I got that now, Dean being saved and redeemed and all. It's just that, you know, to hear that Dean enjoyed doing what he did, kind of out of the blue, it was like being sucker-punched, hard.

[ninjamidget66.livejournal.com]

Oh, for sure! I almost died when I heard that. Just what Dean needs, more guilt, right? I keep wondering how much torture, literal and figurative, Kripke and crew can put our boy through before either Dean or the fans go nuts. ;(

[layne67.livejournal.com]

Well, Jensen can do the angst very, very well, so.

He can do comedy very well, too, hence Yellow Fever I guess. They're really putting him through the grinder thise saeson, aren't they?

[ninjamidget66.livejournal.com]

Man, are they ever. I actually feel sorry for Jensen; not just the tough scenes, but also some of the lines they're making him say. "Perky nipples" and "pain in the pooper"...really?! Think the writers have a bet going to see how long it takes before he rebels? :D

[layne67.livejournal.com]

That's what I thought, too. Well, not the bet exactly, but maybe they're playing him up or something? That lederhausen, for instance, and yeah, perky nipples LOL. I actually cringed when Dean said that, not that they're not perky or anything of course heheh.

But Jensen did carry off those awful lines really, really well, and it goes to show what a great actor he is, right?

[wynterhawk.livejournal.com]

Mmmm... I dunno. I think Dean enjoying it was pretty much in character. Mind now I haven't watched the show in umpteeen years or so, but from what I remember, he struck me as the type that would get off on hurting some bad guys. Maybe I should start watching again.... ;)

[layne67.livejournal.com]

Killing demons and other evil, unnatural things, definitely, but not torturing them, especially if they were human souls. But I've got over that part, rationalized it and everything. I forgive easy where Dean is concerned. Heh.