A couple of observations from 4.19

[layne67]

Adam's mother strongly reminded me of Mary when she first appeared. Could John, in his pain and drug-induced state at the ER, thought she was Mary? And, the actress is Michelle Pfeiffer's sister?


That table is really, really small for two big men to sit side by side ::GLEE::

Caps by marishna

And the young waitress at the diner looked like young Mary ( must be the water ) and the woman bartender made me think of Ellen!

And to reaffirm ( to myself ) that John truly loved his sons, despite everything, I watched 'In My Time Of Dying' again.

John to Sam : Sammy, I've made some mistakes. But I've always done the best I could. I just don't wanna fight anymore, okay?

John to Dean : You know, when you were a kid ... I'd come home from a hunt. And after what I'd seen ... I'd be wrecked. And you ... you'd come up to me and you'd put your hand on my shoulder and you'd look me in the eye. You'd say "It's okay, Dad." Dean. I'm sorry. You shouldn't have to say that to me. I should've been saying that to you. I put too much on your shoulders. I made you grow up too fast. You took care of Sam and you took care of me. And you didn't complain, not once. I just want you to know that I'm so proud of you.





It still hurts, because I love John, and I love it that Dean idolized his father, and for a moment there ( well, more than a moment ) it felt like John was throwing back all of Dean's love and loyalty to his face. I don't hate Adam, not at all, but well, I'm just thinking that if I were to suddenly find out that my father had a second family that I knew nothing about, I would be devastated.

Dean bludgeoning the ghoul over and over again reminded me of that time when he smashed the Impala. And I think, just like that time, he was angry at John. Or maybe it was just me projecting my own feelings, I don't know *sighs*

Comments

[angels3.livejournal.com]

He's human so there's no way he couldn't be angry at John. I also think he was mad because he never really got to meet their brother and that thing killed him so that could be another reason for hostility. Then it hurt Sam so I'm thinking mr. ghoul was really fucked when Dean came in swinging.

The end part though when Dean told Sam he was just like their dad wasn't a compliment to me. It felt like Dean giving up on some and saying I can't do this agian. I can't live my life trying to keep another person from revenge and stubborness because he's already done that once for John. I think he's tired (I mean physically and emotionally not in a selfish way) of being the one to try and keep them even.


Although honestly I think it's time the boy was freaking selfish myself.

[layne67.livejournal.com]

Although honestly I think it's time the boy was freaking selfish myself.

*agrees*

My hubby and I were talking about this just now, and he said that if he were Dean he would just pack up and leave, go start a farm or something, apoclaypse be damned.

The end part though when Dean told Sam he was just like their dad wasn't a compliment to me

Nope, not a compliment at all. Though I really can't pinpoint what Dean was feeling at that time. Angry at John? Or maybe ... he was angry at himself. Yes, I think that's it. He maybe even hates himself, and he's probably thinking that he'd never be good enough for John, for Sam, for Cassie, for Lisa, for anybody. My poor dean.

[angels3.livejournal.com]

I know, *whimpers*

The only person to tell Dean he was worth something was Bobby. I have great fears for the finale about Bobby. I mean sick to my stomach fear thinking about him.

[layne67.livejournal.com]

Bobby and Castiel both. And yeah, that's one of the reasons that I love Castiel. He likes Dean, and I think he has faith in our Dean. Just like Bobby.

Oh dear, if Bobby died, I bet Dean would think that it's his fault *head-desk*

[ckll.livejournal.com]

John loved his son in his own way. He may found a kind of 'redemption' having Adam and lived some normal moments with him which i'm sure he wanted to also had with Sam and Dean but he had to protect them.

[layne67.livejournal.com]

I wonder whether Adam's mother knew who/what John really was. I wasn't very clear on that. And I also think that ghoul!Adam was exaggerating it a bit to Dean, when he told Dean about his birthday and all.

[ckll.livejournal.com]

I don't think she knew about John. As for Adam, he just mentioned about his childhood. It was normal for him but Dean wasn't expecting to hear this

[layne67.livejournal.com]

Was Adam really Adam from the start? Or was that the ghoul in the diner? That's another thing that I'm not sure of.

[ckll.livejournal.com]

I think he was the ghoul all episode

[ala-tariel.livejournal.com]

The real Adam was already dead when the ghoul!Adam made the phone call. It's because the ghoul wanted to make a revenge to John hence the phone call. Otherwise, I don't think the real Adam would make such a phone call.

[layne67.livejournal.com]

I don't think the real Adam would make such a phone call.

It makes you wonder, doesn't it, on why the real Adam had never called his father all this time. Which makes me think that the relationship between the real Adam and John wasn't as what the ghoul painted them to be.

I need to tell myself this, not because I dislike Adam, or John for that matter ( for having Adam and visiting him all those times ), because it hurts me so much that Sam and Dean never get to have any sort of "normal" from John :(

[ala-tariel.livejournal.com]

As Dean said, John wanted to protect Adam from the real John.

And yes, I think the relationship between John and Adam was not a healthy one. Because Adam practically never made any phone call to his father.

[layne67.livejournal.com]

Just the way Sam didn't call his family when he went off to Stanford. I wonder whether John had a fight with Kate the last time he saw his family. Maybe purposely? I could see him trying to let his "normal" family to get on with their lives without him. There're people on my flist who are saying that John shouldn't have gone to see them in the first place when Kate called him, if he really wanted them to be "normal". But I'm thinking that John was simply human, when Kate told him that he had a son he simply had to go see him. Especially as that was the time when Sam just left, maybe John was feeling vulnerable at that time.

[ala-tariel.livejournal.com]

I didn't notice the timeline. Is it the same time with Sammy went to Stanford? Yes, it could be John was vulnerable at the time.

[layne67.livejournal.com]

Dean was 11 and Sam 7 when John first met Kate, and yes, Sam had left for Stanford when Kate called him about his son.

[ala-tariel.livejournal.com]

Suddenly I feel sorry for Dean and Sam. They have to find out about their sibling through a ghoul. I wish John had time to tell them himself.

[layne67.livejournal.com]

I feel sorry for everybody - John, Dean, Sam, Adam - the Winchesters are indeed cursed :(

[ala-tariel.livejournal.com]

Oh, but I'm not sorry for Adam. Not at all. I don't know why, but I'm glad the original Winchester Brothers didn't turn into three.

[layne67.livejournal.com]

Shinta was unspoiled for this episode, wasn't she? What was her reaction when Dean got the phonecall from Adam? Did she scream / wail / flail?

:D

[ala-tariel.livejournal.com]

she's hyperventilated. :D

[layne67.livejournal.com]

I can imagine that!!! In a way, I'm glad that I had been accidentally spoiled otherwise ... PENGSAN!!!!

[ala-tariel.livejournal.com]

Hehehehe...same with me here. I was spoiled a few months before the epi is aired. And every time I asked to Shinta, do you want to know the story, she just covered her ears. :D

[i-o-r-h-a-e-l.livejournal.com]

They LOVE to be sitting side by side. :D

I'm just thinking that if I were to suddenly find out that my father had a second family that I knew nothing about, I would be devastated.

Guh, me too. :( So I still can't feel okay with people who say it's okay for John to do what he's done without telling Sam and Dean. I know Dean might do the same with his dad, possibly having a kid somewhere. But he doesn't already have another family. :(

[layne67.livejournal.com]

They LOVE to be sitting side by side

That reminds me of that scene in Wishful Thinking when they had to sit by side on that too-small bench. Hee, someone at props is a J2 shipper!!!!

I'm not actually angry at John. I'm just sad, no, devastated, that Dean had to find out about Adam through the ghoul. John loved his sons and I don't think he'd want to hurt them. His last thoughts and deeds were for Sam and Dean anyhow.

[nautiloid-1.livejournal.com]

*bounces* I just got episodes 17 - 19 and watched them straight through. I know what you mean when you said your show was back. :) I'm very happy. And that whole conversation about slash? Priceless. I can imagine a lot of people watching that and wondering "wtf are they talking about?" while all around the world, slashers squeed. :D

Re your comments above: it's quite possible Adam didn't know John's phone number but that his mother did. So ghoul!mother could tell ghoul!Adam.

It's a real tragedy that John wanted to keep Adam safe from harm, and yet he died in such a horrible way. I felt a little short changed, because I would have liked to have seen Adam play a bigger role in the rest of the season, not just a brief Ave atque Vale in one episode.

[layne67.livejournal.com]

They could have Adam in a spin-off series or something if they had kept him alive. I'm not quite sure what I'd feel with a third person tagging along though. But maybe just for a few episodes then Adam continues his studies or something.

The real Adam could have gotten John's number from Kate if he wanted to but he didn't. He didn't call John and he didn't know that John had died. Unless ... Kate knew about John and she was adamant ( with John agreeing about it I suppose ) that father and son had nothing to do with each other anymore.

Jensen was so awesome, wasn't he? Somehow the pain he felt there was even more heartfelt to me than his hell-angst.

[chloe-amethyst.livejournal.com]

What I love most about this show is that all of the characters involved are too complicated to be pinned into a simpler model of "I love this character and he loved his family members so he has to act or think a certain way for that to be true." I don't think Adam's existence negated or changed anything previously aired about John's relationship with Dean. It simply added another facet, but I understood from early on that Dean idolized his father because he needed to and not because John was a great father. That doesn't make John a rotten guy, but it makes him a very human one, and most humans are deeply flawed.

[layne67.livejournal.com]

Oh I like John but I've never thought him a great father myself. I remember watching 'Something Wicked' for the first time and I was like, omg, he left those kids alone in a motel for days, with a gun in the room.

But having said that, I do think John did the best he could, and I actually admire the man, despite everything.

But oh, how I wish that he had at least done something normal, like bringing them to a game, at least once. I don't know whether Dean even remembers the first four years of normal that he had, but Sam never ever had it at all. And you know, with just his brother who's a kid himself looking out for him, and after all that they went through together, it would be a tragedy if they ended up trying to kill each other.

[kishuku.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, when Dean started wailing on the Adam-ghoul? Yup, definitely taking a lot of anger at John and Adam out on that thing. Not that it didn't deserve it, it definitely did.

Anyhoo, I have to say I'm happy and satisfied that Adam died. Irony and John's probably rolling over in his grave. The sons he trained survived and the one he tried so hard to shield from the truth died because of him, because the ghouls came back looking for John. Ouch.

[layne67.livejournal.com]

definitely taking a lot of anger at John and Adam out on that thing.

And maybe he's angry with himself, too? Dean is, to me, that kind of person. If anything happened, he'd blame himself first. I can so see him seeing himself as inadequate, not up to John's standard or something.

John's mistake was seeing Adam IMO. If he really wanted Adam to be safe, he shouldn't even have shown up there at all! But then, he was probably feeling very vulnerable at that time, with Sam leaving and the big fight with Sam.

One thing that I've been wondering. I wonder when John gave Dean the Impala. Adam met John when he was 12, that'd be 2004, Dean was already 24 at that time and John was still using the Impala at that time??!!?? Or did I get the years wrong?

[kishuku.livejournal.com]

Well, I think Adam was doomed whether or not John showed up since the ghouls had probably already figured he was their father's killer's kid (yikes, not confusing there at all!) cuz... they probably smelled it or something. Yick. Ghouls.

Anyhoo, I think you have the dates right. Although I suppose maybe John didn't give Dean the Impala until Dean started working his own solo cases? Cuz remember in the pilot Sam sounded surprised that Dean was working his own cases without Dad.

[layne67.livejournal.com]

I've always thought that John gave the Impala to Dean for his 21st birthday but then that's probably fanon. Heh, maybe he felt guilty teaching Adam how to drive the Impala that he gave it to Dean right after he came back from Minnesota!

[kishuku.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah. Total emotional diss on Dean! I completely missed that John let someone other than Dean or Sam drive the Impala! A complete stranger.

Yup. If I were Dean I'd be pissed.